Keyboard Geniuses

EarthBound

Steal These Comments

Highlights from the week’s comment threads.

By Matt Kodner • June 28, 2013

Keyboard Geniuses is our weekly glance at a few intriguing, witty, or otherwise notable posts from the Gameological discussion threads. Comments have been excerpted and edited here for grammar, length, and/or clarity. You can follow the links to see the full threads.

Man Of Steal

For yesterday’s Q&A, we posed the question of which criminally underused game device would we like to see put to use more often. Tim Kraemer nominated an idea for speeding up those lengthy role-playing games:

This applies relatively little to today with this genre being on life support, but I wish every traditional Japanese role-playing game with menu-based battles in the wake of Earthbound had unapologetically swiped its idea of giving you an automatic and instantaneous win without going to the battle screen when it detects you’ll win the fight in one round. I can’t believe that beautiful feature didn’t catch on.

And Citric gave us a fun-sounding way to cast digital spells with a keyboard:

The spell system from Treasure Of The Rudras. It worked by typing in different words, and you would get a spell. Sometimes the spell was great! Sometimes it was useless. You could type in anything at all and it would work, but there was also a complex system of prefixes and suffixes and root words which did different stuff, and it was pretty rewarding. But nobody has attempted anything like it to my knowledge.

Hell, with the omnipresent microphones on new console, it could even evolve into shouting various words to get a spell. Imagine, you could shout “Woah there, Hitler” and maybe the spell would stop time or something. It’s potentially nifty.

Achievement In The Sky
David Dreger A.K.A. Knuckles Dawson

John Teti mourned the loss of 28-year-old David “Knuckles Dawson” Dreger, a figure in the gaming community known as an Xbox Achievement guru. Uncle Roundy reflected on the general lack of obituaries in the gaming world:

“We don’t do many obituaries on The Gameological Society.”

This is one of those things I would never have thought about had it not been said (written?) aloud. Gaming is, comparatively speaking, a young medium, and we tend to think of the people who inhabit it as young, so it is all the more jarring (at least to me) when a person in the world of gaming dies, because despite the fact that people of all ages die all over the world every day, I still largely consider death the province of the old. Perhaps a day will come when obituaries of people in the gaming industry will be commonplace, but for now it is a relative rarity, and it will always shock me when it happens. Sure, you have your occasional Gunpei Yokoi or Takeo Miratsu, but even they were relatively young in the grand scheme of things (56 and 46, respectively).

I remember when GameFAQs was affected by the death of Kao Megura, an early and highly influential contributor who essentially set the bar for how comprehensive a text FAQ/walkthrough should be and what it should look like. That is really the only analogue I have for this situation. He really made us think about the heights we could achieve in gaming and inspired us to do more, and better. So too, I think, will David Dreger.

Wordslinger
Call Of Juarez: Gunslinger

In the first episode of this week’s Digest, our monthly video chat and chew, John Teti was joined by stalwart Digest guest Drew Toal. They discussed Call Of Juarez: Gunslinger, a fun riff on the first-person shooter that gets a lot of mileage out of its unreliable narrator. Fluka thought the voiceovers were a smart twist for yet another shooting game:

An unreliable narrator is an excellent solution to the whole ludonarrative dissonance problem. As you say, the over-the-top murderous gameplay in most shooters doesn’t make much sense as “reality.” So why not put it in a context where it does make sense—i.e., as the tall-tale story of a man who is full of shit? It’s also a good excuse for messing around with gameplay in creative ways. In terms of justifying unreal, semi-magical elements, “making up stuff” is a nice alternative to the overused settings of sci fi and fantasy.

Full Steam Ahead
Don Mattrick, flip-flopped

Don Mattrick, flip-flopped

Sam Barsanti brought us another edition of The Bulletin, our weekly news roundup. In the wake of a heated E3, the Xbox One reversed its digital sharing policies in favor of the old-fashioned method of lending your friend a disc and never seeing it again. Commenters raised the online game distribution system Steam as a point of comparison, and Merve gave us his theory on its wild success:

Steam works the way it does for three reasons:

1. When it started, it was reviled. It needed to offer great deals in order to entice people to start using digital distribution.

2. Now that digital distribution has gained in popularity, it has competition from other services, such as Gamefly, Green Man Gaming, Origin, etc.

3. Valve is not a publicly-traded company beholden to shareholders. It can do whatever the fuck it wants.

Nos. 2 and 3 do not apply to Microsoft and the Xbox One. Digital game retail on the console would effectively be a monopoly. There’s no reason for Microsoft to price competitively.

Exant pointed to Steam’s strong social networking:

I’ve never seen sales as [the reason] why my friends or I started using Steam. True, we all hated it when it came out, when I was in high school and didn’t have high-speed internet. Then we all left to go to separate cities for college and needed a way to play video games together. Back then, multiplayer games were this patchwork of different server systems and joining the same server for the same game often took a significant amount of work.

But Steam has this “Join Game” feature, which was why we finally fell in love with it. If we all bought the game on Steam, we could all easily join each other’s games. Now Steam has become the only chat client I ever use, and it’s still how I play games with friends.

With all the rabble-rousing over Microsoft’s digital-rights policies, it’s easy to forget that the next generation of consoles will have significant hardware upgrades. Dr. Flim Flam gave us the prognosis:

[The improved hardware] is all about being able to do more. More characters, more buildings with actual innards, more stuff going on when you’re playing. The problem is that while this stuff makes immersive and deep gaming experiences, it doesn’t necessarily sell the next generation as well as previous generations have, where we were still getting some big boosts.

The dismissive way both major third-party-supported consoles treat the previous generation is what upsets me. Backward compatibility is always kind of overvalued, but when the generational gap continues to narrow like it does, previous generations feel less and less archaic. I’m not even asking for perfect backward compatibility; I’m just asking for the last generation to not be so quickly forgotten.

Take It Or Leaf It
Animal Crossing: New Leaf

I had a lot of fun playing Animal Crossing: New Leaf, the newest handheld entry in the pleasant series of small town life simulators. One of my proudest moments was the hour it took to recreate Gameological’s red button logo to fly as a flag in the proud village of Kodneria. Destroy Him My Robots linked us to a handful of neat QR codes for New Leaf players to scan and incorporate into their own towns. There’s even a much more competently drawn Gameological button in the mix. Here’s the link:

QR codes!

And here’s the Gameological button as rendered in the game:

Animal Crossing Gameological logo
Saints Row (Not) IV Australia
Saints Row IV

John Teti brought us the lowdown on how the Australian equivalent to the ESRB recently made the decision to not rate Saints Row IV, effectively banning it from sale, for what they see as unwarranted sexual violence. A discussion cropped up on rating boards’ seemingly dopey policies regarding onscreen violence, but Zebbart drew a strong analogy to childhood games:

I don’t think it has anything to do with religion. Rather, it has to do with parenthood and child rearing. I don’t know quite how to put it into words as a logical principle, but imagine as a parent finding your kid pretending to shoot the neighbor boy while playing cops and robbers. Now imagine him pretending to fuck the neighbor boy while playing house. One of those seems waaaaaay worse, right? Even though in real life, the other is actually way worse. Even if we’re talking about 15-year-olds, a sensitive peacenik parent (like me) might have some qualms about a teenage daughter playing paintball and talking about how many kills she got, but thank God there is not equivalent for getting together and pretending to have sex with a lot of people where the goal is how many scores you get at that (you just have to worry about the real life versions of it).

My point is, having more of a problem with simulated sex than simulated killing does not equal having more of a problem with real sex than real killing, especially when it comes to exposing children to the simulation.

Gameological Gallery

We’re always thrilled to see your artwork pop up in the comment threads. You folks are a talented bunch! In the Q&A thread, Effigy Power gave us her take on this week’s ice cream-centric Digest.

Digest Comic

My favorite part is Drew’s band-aid in memoriam of his mustache. Great job, everybody! Thanks for reading and commenting, and we’ll see you next week.

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37 Responses to “Steal These Comments”

  1. The_Helmaroc_King says:

    While it’s not related to the articles this week, I’d like to link to this Gamasutra article about free-to-play monetization techniques. This kind of psychological talk is fascinating to a dilettante like me, but I suspect some of you might find it a tad more… off-putting how developers are trying to get people to spend money… or maybe you’ll just say, “I knew it!”

    • TaumpyTearrs says:

       That was pretty interesting. And I am flabbergasted at the fact that there are people spending THOUSANDS of dollars on these games. I can see somebody getting bilked out of a couple of bucks, or maybe even getting to like $50-100 before realizing its a rip-off, but that paper talked about people spending upwards of $3000 a year on a game!

      That’s insane. You could buy all 3 consoles/accessories (even the new/soon to be released ones) and a few dozen games at full $60 price for that much money.

      • The_Helmaroc_King says:

        I’ve heard that many, if not most, free-to-play games are kept profitable by a few high-rollers. “Whales” in industry terms. They’re definitely in the minority, but boy do they spend a lot: “The top 10 percent of players can account for as much as 50 percent of all in-app purchase revenue.” The article also refers to a few players that have, supposedly, spent several thousand dollars a month on their choice of game. The interviewees in the article say they can afford to spend that much, but the whole thing is just foreign to me.

  2. Fyodor Douchetoevsky says:

    Apparently what the australian rating’s board objected to in SR4 was the “alien anal probe” gun. Which is essentially a rape gun. Yeesh. 

  3. stakkalee says:

    Happy end of June, everybody!  Google Reader dies in 3 days, so I hope you’ve all made appropriate arrangements.  This week was a slow one for comments; the most commented article was the WAYPTW thread which only had 142 comments this week.  And here are the Top 5 Most Liked (non-KG) comments:
    1) The Bulletineer Himself, Mr. @Sam_Barsanti:disqus, got 38 likes for being irritated at those Gizmodo putzes!
    2) @His_Space_Holiness:disqus gets 35 likes for standing athwart Progress, yelling “Not Yet!”
    3) With 28 likes @WaxTom:disqus makes us all feel dirty.
    4) With 24 likes @Spacemonkey_Mafia:disqus is having none of it.
    5) @Paraclete_Pizza:disqus gets 22 likes for admitting he’s a Seth McFarlane fan.
    This was a banner week for new members of the Plaid Jacket Society – we’re inducting 4 new members!  There’s plaid jackets aplenty for @TimKraemer:disqus, @UncleRoundy:disqus, @Exant:disqus and @Zebbart:disqus!  And as for our returning members, @DrFlimFlam:disqus and @DestroyHimMyRobots:disqus each get their third stud for their fourth mentions!  @Fluka:disqus gets her ninth stud, @Citric:disqus gets his tenth stud and @Merve2:disqus unlocks the “Bar Mitzvah!” achievement with his fifteenth stud!  And the Queen of Gameological herself, Miss @Effigy_Power:disqus, gets the “Roadtrip!” achievement with her 25th stud, and she’s once again within one stud of @Paraclete_Pizza:disqus for first place!
    And for the linkdump, here’s a brief little write-up about The Controller Project, an attempt to build custom controllers for gamers with physical difficulties.  Check it out, spread the word, and if you have a 3D printer, maybe consider joining up?  That’s it for this week; enjoy your gaming, and remember to keep it scintillating!

    • Uncle Roundy says:

      Actually, I would like to note for record-keeping purposes that I was going by RTW for awhile, but then changed it to Uncle Roundy after it became some weird/creepy nickname I threw out there on my YouTube videos that ended up sticking. If it makes any sort of difference that is. (I log in via Twitter and it changed when I tweaked my profile.)

      • stakkalee says:

        I’ve updated the spreadsheet, and congratulations!  This was your fourth Soupy selection! Enjoy those studs!

    • Girard says:

      I AM TERRIFIED!

      • Effigy_Power says:

        Don’t worry so much. Also, would you like your ass handed to you wrapped or are you just going to eat it there and then?

      • Girard says:

        @Effigy_Power:disqus :
        Am I to assume that my ass is grass?
        I mean, it had better be! I’m vegan!

    • stakkalee says:

      Crap, that’s right, I was thinking Quinceañera.

  4. Drew Toal says:

    That’s an incredible likeness.

  5. Spacemonkey Mafia says:

    Weekend Prompt!   Featuring a new header graphic brimming with GIF-style dynamism!

       It was immediately after Christmas and I had to return to Minneapolis from Milwaukee earlier than my wife.  I had planned to take the Greyhound, or the “Misanthrope Maker” as it is colloquially know by nobody, but my mother-in-law, in her eternal benevolence, upgraded me to an Amtrak ticket.
       I spent almost the entirety of that incredibly pleasant trip playing Minish Cap on the DS and drinking shitty canned tequila sunrises from the snack bar.
       Another year, immediately after Christmas, my wife and her mom went to Italy together.  It was early January in Minneapolis and so bitter cold, clouds couldn’t form in the sky.
       I scraped the armchair in front of the television, sat down, put a blanket on my lap and had a Knights of the Old Republic 2 marathon.

       What are some of your favorite gaming memories? 

    • Fluka says:

      Playing Oblivion, and rediscovering gaming.

      After I graduated college, and right before I went to grad school, I went to live with my then-boyfriend, now-husband for the summer.  He was working in [redacted picturesque southern European country], in the middle of nowhere.  It was the first summer I’d had free essentially since middle school.  I walked a lot, learned how to cook, did a lot of reading, and a lot of tourism.  Not speaking the language or having any other local friends, however, I eventually got bored during the weekdays.

      So my husband set me up with a heavily modded copy of Oblivion, which was still new and hot then.  And it completely devoured my life.  With no other obligations to worry about, I’d sometimes play for a full eight-hour day.  I was gathering potion ingredients in my dreams.  This was the first time I’d been playing games in 6+ years.

      Sunny Mediterranean picnics on the weekends alternating with a total-onslaught reintroduction to games: best summer ever.

    • PaganPoet says:

      Easily, it would have to be the Street Fighter II Turbo tournaments we used to hold at our house with my brother and all my cousins. I am decidedly irreligious, but my family is Roman Catholic. So, as you can imagine, I have a lot of cousins. I probably have cousins being born as I type. So our house was the place to be when I was small, because we had a Super Nintendo, and SFII Turbo was the go to game for big groups.

      Something more recent? I’d have to say rediscovering gaming and catching up on the PS2 library after I graduated college. I was far too poor for video games for such a long time during college…not that I had time for it anyway, I was in school full time and I worked full time. When I graduated, my brother donated his old PS2 to me. I signed up for gamefly and spent the spring and summer (I graduated after winter quarter) catching up on years of great games that I had missed.

      • HobbesMkii says:

         The Vatican is notorious for its extremely high rates of crime, interestingly enough.

    • ProfFarnsworth says:

      Mine has to be similar to @EmperorNortonI:disqus .  My childhood was not very pleasant (I am pretty sure it was awful and terrible). To escape I would play video games.  One distinct memory I have is playing Final Fantasy XII, when my mother passed away.

      The other, better memory I have about video games is playing Illusion of Gaia as a boy and just imagining travelling the world and seeing all the exciting historical places the game shows.  I even spent extra amounts of time exploring my town and the forests around my town due to this game.  I really like those memories.

    • Chewbacca Abercrombie says:

      Some friends, my little brother and I were in the little arcade in a movie theater lobby and they had Galaga, one of my favorite games ever. I was completely focused and kicking ass, was on my way to having the high score on the machine. My little brother was bouncing a good sized rubber ball, like you’d get out of a gumball machine, only like five times the size, when he accidentally bounced it across the room and it flew like a guided missile and knocked the plug of the Galaga machine out of the wall, killing the game and deleting my score. It was pretty funny. Also, when I used to smoke pot, getting baked outta my skull with my friends and playing hours of Star Wars Pod Racer and entire seasons of NFL Blitz.

    • Well, I wish the first memory that comes to mind was anywhere near as heartwarming as @Fluka:disqus or @Effigy_Power:disqus’s tales, but it’s gotta be the time I commandeered my friends’ PlayStation to an alarming degree.  Without getting too much into biography, I was enrolled in a fairly intense undergraduate theatre program that I learned within the first semester could not accommodate my love for video games.  The workload, in the classroom and outside of it, demanded concentration that couldn’t be surrendered by an obsessive like myself.  I opted for a frustrating coping mechanism whereby I swore celibacy to gaming during the academic year and binged during the summer.  It was an awkward compromise, and the clinical depression I sank into during this period (complete with temporary hospitalization!) should have told me I was going about it the wrong way.

      Cut to a Friday evening in March ’99 at the apartment of my friends Earnest and Chris.  They just obtained this lovely new item known as Metal Gear Solid, and demonstrated said item to me.  I asked if it would be all right if I played it for a bit.  They agreed.  They watched for awhile.  They told me to lock up after I left, as they were going to bed.  They went to bed.  Earnest arose for a 7:00 A.M. lighting hang.  He returned several hours later and left for another meeting.  Chris arose at 10:00 A.M. for a production meeting on a different show.  He returned just after noon.

      During this period…this fifteen hour period…I hadn’t moved an inch, even to go to the bathroom.  From Snake’s initial infiltration to either the battle with Vulcan Raven or Liquid Snake’s big monologue–my memory and consciousness are a bit weary on this point–I’d plowed straight through, riveted at the sheer playability of a sequel to an old Nintendo favorite and determined to see everything it had to offer in one sitting.  The pharmacists had left the heroin addict with the keys to the methadone clinic. 

      “Matt, how ya doin’, buddy?” asked Chris, sitting down beside my knock-kneed, baggy-eyed, wobbly frame.  “You know, I think they’re still doing that Chinese buffet across town for another couple hours.”  He gradually eased the PS controller from my hand.  He steered me in the general direction of the toilet.  We left for gyoza, kung pao and barely coherent conversation.

      He was my best man last year at my wedding.  What I learned from this incident is that, in staging an intervention, it often behooves one to substitute one addiction (Chinese buffet) for another (video games).  That’s the temporary solution.  The mark of a true friend–and the more permanent solution–is, then, not to say, “Get the fuck out of my house!”, but to sit down, talk, and try to empathize with what someone’s going through.  I’m pleased and grateful to say I got both that day.

      I’m also pleased and grateful to report that I still love the FUCK out of gaming, and that it continues to keep me sane these days without requiring fifteen-hour endurance tests (most of the time).  Or a Bladder Of Steel.

      • TaumpyTearrs says:

         I failed my first 2 semesters because I was more interested in my new girlfriend, Metal Gear Solid 3 and GTA San Andreas than I was in school. If she was awake we were hanging out, if she was asleep I was playing those games. Still together 10 years later, though (the only good to come of this)!

        I never really adjusted to the college workload. In high school I did almost nothing for 4 years and got good grades in advanced classes, all while stoned, asleep or reading comic books or websites. After 8 years (got kicked out after failing 3 or 4 semesters, went to community college then came back) in college I would have finally gotten my Bachelors last year, but I had messed up so many classes in the past that my GPA for my major (Psych) was a 1.8 and I need a 2.0 for the degree. I didn’t learn this til after they had  let me walk, I had told everyone I had graduated etc. Then I found out I hadn’t graduated after all! Atleast my Grandma got to see me walk before she passed, I didn’t have the heart to tell her after that I had fucked up.  And I had been there so long I was informed they would not give me anymore loans. And I had not been able to find a job for 6 months, so I got evicted and we moved in with my mom.

        Now I have no idea how to get my degree or if I should even bother. I live too far away to commute back to school, online classes are limited, and in my 8 years I took most of the Psych classes they offered, so I don’t know what I could take (not to mention how many classes it would take to raise that 0.2 points, since I have so many classes to average them against). And of course, I have no loans and I have the debters on my ass for the 50K I wasted over the last decade. And I have no interest in Grad school and no idea what a I want to do in general.

        I wish I had just had the balls to not go to college. But I wasn’t prepared to go out on my own, and my dad rented his house to me and helped me out as long as I would go to school. So instead of taking a chance I decided to milk that shit and keep doing what I had done in high school, hanging out with loser friends and fucking about. If I only had a time machine to slap some sense into myself, and say “go be poor in New York and join the Upright Citizens Brigade theater, it may be a struggle now but otherwise your gonna dick around for a decade and accrue massive debt and feel like you have nowhere to go.”

        • I feel ya, man.  I barely managed to limp out of there, gradewise, and was stuck with massive amounts of debt myself with very little to show for it (I walked but didn’t get my diploma on a technicality; I could have fought it but chose to take the “I know I graduated in my mind” path, foolish course though it may have been). 

          I wish I could give you some specific advice about how to turn it all around, but the fact is that I’ve just been blessed with excellent jobs, a wonderful support network of family and friends, and marvelous gaming entertainment in the meantime (to tie it all back to our ostensible subject).  It sounds like those last two may apply to you as well, and they’re the most important, so congratulations.  You’re better off than some graduates I know in that department.

          As far as that first part…selling out to pay down some of that debt may not have done wonders for my ambitions, but it helped me sleep a little better at night.  I can’t really say, “so, go do that!” in an America with this bad an unemployment rate, nor in a way that makes you feel better about that Psych degree.  But I CAN say that I don’t think college was a waste of time, for me or for you or for anyone.  Great things like lasting relationships are made there, and mistakes like mountains of student loan debt are made there, and the powers that be need to recognize that those who fall into the latter can be put through such needless, crippling financial conditions that memories of the former are all but erased.  And that’s BEFORE this upcoming July vote that could double interest rates on those loans, but, well, anyway…

          Stay honest.  Keep that girlfriend.  Stay interested.  And remind me when it is that I’m supposed to be a grown-up myself.  That’s my advice to you today.

    • stakkalee says:

      Some of my favorite gaming memories come from the computer lab at high school.  I went to a Department of Defense high school where the computer teacher was a bit out of his depth around all that technology, and so he recruited me and a few other students to help him run the network and keep the equipment working.  That was the idea, anyway, but in actuality all he did was give the keys to the kingdom to a bunch of shiftless thieves and nerds with boundary issues.  Within the first semester we’d cracked admin passwords, hacked the grade database and set up a dedicated Doom server.  Every day in computer class there would be Mr. Douglas teaching students at one end of the room while at the other end me and my friends were fragging the hell out of each other with BFGs.  In class!  We’d even come around to school on Saturdays to play; we weren’t authorized, of course, but the window to the server room was loose enough that we could jiggle it open and then Dave, the skinniest of us, would shimmy through the window and unlock the door to the computer lab where we’d proceed to play Doom past sunset.  It was glorious.

      • DrFlimFlam says:

        Some of my friends would show up to computer lab early just for the chance to play some LAN Duke 3D. So inappropriate to have on school computers, but so so fun.

      • Effigy_Power says:

        And as a result the NSA was tasked with creating PRISM, the US-wide system to find students using DoD computers to play games.

    • Fluka says:

      @Effigy_Power:disqus Sure sure!

    • Fluka says:

      Also, how did I just notice the totally awesome animated header to this thread?  Sweeeeeeet!

    • TaumpyTearrs says:

       Playing through the last half of Metal Gear Solid 2 for the first time while on Ecstasy. I only tried X a few times, and I saw some pretty negative effects in my friends who did it more, but the first time I tried it and watched Pootie Tang I nearly died laughing, then the second or third time it accompanied 8-10 hours of MGS2.

      The insanity of the game’s second half is well documented, but nothing can capture how crazy it seemed to my sleep deprived and tripping mind when the game started talking to me and glitching. I was laughing my ass off at Naked Raiden, being terrified by the failing AI, and just shitting myself at how crazy this game was getting. The run down the long hallway with Solid Snake at your side is still one of the most joyous moments I have had in a game.

      Also, getting baked with my friend and playing insane games of Perfect Dark which we had altered to make weird fights. Like when we would load up on Combat Boosts while fighting endless bots who only had melee attacks. Sounds easy, except for the fact that when someone meleed you while Boosting you would get this crazy slowed down reaction of blurred and red vision, making it nearly impossible to do anything for a few seconds. And since there were like 12 of them running around at hyperspeed it would get KRAZY, flurries of fists and random gunfire.

      Endless hours playing GTA 3 on the weekend with my buddy, just seeing what kind of crazy shit we could pull off and using cheats. I don’t think I’ve ever played another GTA as much as I played 3 just messing around because it was so new and amazing.

      • Spacemonkey Mafia says:

        Smoking pot while playing the very buggy, very erratic NES Might And Magic is my favorite drug/gaming memory.  We’d sit in my buddy’s attic room while he’d play and I’d sit next to him and draw.  The game was a nonsensical mess, but that was the fun.  Well, that and the dope.

  6. DrFlimFlam says:

    Epaulets!

  7. DrFlimFlam says:

    Apparently late last night even. Bummed I missed it.

  8. Necrogem says:

     That’s so funny, I had a very similar experience when my little brother discovered the Beatles around the same time I was playing Ocarina of Time.  The Shadow Temple scared me so badly (I was maybe 12) that in order to get through it at all, I had to listen to those two albums, plus Abbey Road, instead of the freaky music in the dungeon.  I have great memories of jumping over the invisible scythe while “Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite” played, giving the whole place a very different atmosphere!

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